Robbie Martin: Full Interview

TRANSCRIPT

Robbie Martin
Interviewed by Lauren Wells
31st October 2018


LW: This is Lauren Wells conducting an oral history interview for West Yorkshire Queer Stories on the 31st of October 2018. Could you start by telling us a bit about yourself, your name, preferred pronouns perhaps and your date of birth?

RM: Ah, well me date of birth is the twenty-eighth of April 1950, ah, I like to be called eh, Robbie, for those who know Robbie, err… and what was the other bit?

LW: Your preferred pronouns?

RM: Er, well if I’m dressed, if I’m presenting as female then it’s really… really, really good to be, er, referred to as she, mmm.

LW: And can you tell me where you live at the moment?

RM: Well, er in Saltaire, yeah.

LW: And how do you identify?

RM: As?

LW: In regard to gender, sexuality perhaps?

RM: Err, that er, that’s one that’s really sort of been quite, er quite changing I suppose, sort of in the last few years really I’ve cottoned on more to er, to trans as a term really umm, so always I suppose, transvestite. Er, but I didn’t really find out what, about that until I were, what err… 16, 16-ish y’know, and then er, it were, really, sort of like really quite, er supressed and wearing me sister’s clothes and y’know, never really thought anything about it as a…err, an identity thing, at all really, ahh but er, I suppose in the last few years a lot more so, er I’ve er thought of that. Have you heard of the Beaumont Society?

LW: Yes

RM: So I joined that, that would be about, erm… 1990 err, ’97ish or ’8, ’97 probably, ’6 or summat like that. Er and in a way I er, the identification then I suppose I’d just think of meself as a er, as a, as a cross-dresser. Er and, er and then more got into thinking y’know that its, er yeah probably am a female a lot more than just dressing, sort of thing, so that’s… and I’m still, still there really. Er, I recently read the, er, erm, I’ve forgotten his name it’s disappeared, er comedian anyway that will come back, [pause] Eddie Izzard… and er sort of like, he really says transexual and as, same as in a way transvestite. So in a way I always thought of transsexual as er, y’know having the surgery, sort of thing. But that’s not now necessarily as true, I don’t think. Err so ah, in a way, me identification goes, goes with that, but again um there’s, I’ve got, a fairish few ah, friends who know. And sort of like if they were coming here, I’d be dressed similar to this, or going to their house. But you know walking through the street or whatever is something that I don’t, I don’t do, but y’know, if I sort of plucked up enough courage. But, um, so er, so I think of meself now, on that sort of er… continuum I suppose.

LW: And do you think, it’s been discussed a lot in the media recently, do you think that’s helped you in a way? You mention reading Eddie Izzard’s book…

RM: I er, I think certainly the things beforehand. This, really sort of er recent one, on two or three days around the er government consultation thing, I think that er, that weren’t helpful at all. Weren’t helpful to anybody, and err, and I think that were, yeah y’know. Prior to that, er it was getting really… very friendly, I was getting, sort of y’know a lot braver, a lot more comfortable. Err, because although I don’t wear makeup and a dress, a lot of the time, I do wear, most of the clothes I wear are female clothes, bought as, female clothes, er so er, and I were feeling a lot more comfortable, going out like that. I think the government consultation thing has died down a little bit now, but that… it didn’t help. And the recent thing, Mermaids on television I think that were, um, that were quite good. And er, there was somebody posted on the Beaumont Society, that er, he knew y’know that there was er, y’know sort of based on fact and it happened sort of twenty five years ago, so again that were reassuring in a way… I think that were well done. So I think the, er most of the, some of the media are okay, er but Daily Mail types, and stuff like that are pretty bad. And whatever I think, its er, y’know yeah it’s er, yeah there’s always gonna be some sort of bad reaction, out in, in public. But, most of the things that I read on the website, on the Beaumont site, and there’s a site called, cross-dressers which I’m on, and that er, most people, most of the time seem to have positive experiences.

LW: So you mentioned that you don’t feel comfortable, very often going out on the street dressed in women’s clothes and is that due to any experience that you’ve had?

RM: Er, no not really, er, I mean most experiences I’ve had when I’ve told people or I’ve been out have been… good. Erm but in away I’ve avoided y’know, I’m yeah it’s not based on… it’s based on sort of like thinking, yes somebody’s going to, and I’m not too bothered about er, a comment or owt, but there’s er, yeah you’re quite likely to get it or y’know sort of, verbal abuse, yeah.

LW: Rachel and I were talking on the way up about how wonderful it is to speak to someone who’s not in Leeds, but I wondered how different it is for you living in a more rural community, what do you think?

RM: Erm, it might, er, it just depends were you live in Leeds because I suppose if you lived right in the centre, or right in the centre of Manchester, err… the thing is just about anywhere you live then you, unless you drive, which I do drive but I er, I haven’t, I drink as well and I don’t know whether I’d like to go out for a night and not drink. So then, so getting to either Leeds or wherever would be public transport and that would be er, quite yeah, that would be very very difficult to, certainly by meself. I’ve been to er, two er things called er Lavender Ball at Victoria Hall in Saltaire, so um, that’s probably the nearest anybody could get to y’know from here. So er, the first time was er quite good, it were very er, very enjoyable sort of thinking about it beforehand, and very enjoyable getting, er buying some clothes and getting made up and that, and then the walk from here, to er to Victoria Hall. Er we, we didn’t pass anybody and it were dark so er, that weren’t too bad and er yeah, it were great there, had a yeah, a very good time. So like, the second time it were er, again a lot easier just walking from here to there, but they don’t have ‘em that regularly, so yeah that were good, both me and me wife went and er, she enjoyed it as well. So that were very, really really, opportunity to be out er, out with Molly, dressed erm and erm y’know in, in public and erm yeah that were really really, really enjoyable, yeah.

LW: Could you tell me a bit more about Lavender Ball? I’ve not heard of it before, is it a club or?

RM: It’s er, It’s the Lavender Ball extra, er Orchestra, and if you Google that you’ll find, er so I don’t know, certainly you don’t have to be LGBT to be in the orchestra erm, but whether a lot of them are or not or whether it’s just the conductor or er, they started with a tea dance, sort of thing and that’s in the afternoon which would be a lot more difficult for me to get to. And I don’t, in most ways as er, as er I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t go to a do like that, it’s only because I go, dressed in a way, I wouldn’t necessarily pick to er, to go to a dance thing like that erm normally I don’t suppose. But er, yeah, so they’re er they’re good and I know somebody whose er, in the Orchestra, so er yes, she were very helpful and I did see people, umm that I knew who were er, who were there, er so that again, that were er, that were good.

LW: So you mentioned you were sixteen when you first started cross-dressing?

RM: I would be er, I would be less I’d be about, er, well first it er, was quite, but er yeah, the first time I remember being, er, dressed in girls’ clothes, were when I were four, four coming up five. Eh and then I, er yeah so it started um, y’know trying on my sister’s clothes I’d be about eleven mm.

LW: And was that something that you did in secret?

RM: Er yes, yeah. God knows how she didn’t know, but yeah [laughs]

LW: Did you perfect the art of putting them back again then?

RM: Er yes, yeah, it were very er, sort of like folding it exactly as it were before.

LW: And then how did it progress, is this something you’ve always done, or come back to in later life?

RM: Erm, so erm, well so er, when I were at home, that was, that was possible and then I erm, after I left school, I went to erm, I joined the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, which were, as a Marine engineer. So that were going to college in London so obviously I couldn’t do it there so I didn’t do it y’know sort of like. My sister were away sort of like when I were back on holiday and stuff and there were lots of opportunity then, more opportunity then when she wasn’t there really. Erm, and then when I were at sea obviously. So I’ve always, erm, my work, up until recently were always in sort of really, quite male occupations, yeah and things so er, … and then when I er, got married first off she er, my first marriage, er I told her, er and she said okay. But she weren’t really erm, so er so again that were very, sort of like clandestine.

Er, there was one time when, when I did get fully dressed and it didn’t work out very well. It didn’t work out very well at all really, er and then - when I were, er, when I were younger I had er, quite big breasts and erm, so she, she knew that, er and we had this time when she really, I don’t know er for some reason she didn’t seem to trust me a lot, and it were, we had er …we went to Relate for a bit, and never mentioned my cross-dressing, er, and I didn’t, I didn’t think it were owt to do with, because I weren’t really, doing it, but so I don’t know. But she, she did seem to think that I should do something, er with my breasts, and I did. Erm, so it were at the time when er, I think it were ‘90, er ‘92, ish… erm it might have been ‘92 it might have been earlier, and er so if you, nowadays I think y’know NHS, you probably wouldn’t get it but then, you wanted anything you put it in and they had this, they had an 18 month waiting list, so then you got it done. Er so I er, I had em lessened. Which helped me in a lot of ways because then people didn’t look at me as much when I just had a t-shirt on, because er, they did, they did show. Erm, ah, I don’t know now yeah, I’d er, I’d like I’d like, em back [laughs] In a lot of ways.

So er, anyway, then I’ve two children and er, then y’know sort of like the marriage broke down, and er then. So I left and you know then straight away people that er, the women I were with then were er, y’know fully knew and a lot more were very supportive. So since, since then er, about ‘98, then I’ve been, sort of like, y’know certainly at home sort of, more dressed most of the time, so that’s, and er, then er, got married to Molly in 2006, er ‘7, and er yeah she’s fully supportive and y’know sort of like, and so that’s got more, we’ve moved here and we’ve found different friends that I told, and so its y’know got a lot more comfortable since.

LW: So have you found with the friends that you’ve met since you’ve been with Molly that there has been a lot more acceptance?

RM: Er so, yeah, yeah. There haven’t been any erm, that hasn’t been anybody who’s said owt nasty or owt like that. Er there some who I think accept it and know about it on a sort of like quite intellectual level, but not necessarily as keen, on seeing you or, or anything. Er, my sons like that, erm that were er, telling him were good. I told my daughter a little bit before that and y’know she’s, she’s sort of quite fine, although I don’t see her that much er, er dressed at all. But erm, so most people yes, some have been extremely, er helpful er y’know in, makeup advice and things like that so that’s er yeah, mm.

LW: Are you happy to talk a bit more about, telling your son and daughter, and how that was?

RM: Er, yes, I er…I didn’t know whether my first wife had told them or talked about it at all. I didn’t think they had, erm but it was something that erm, I didn’t really want them to find out, in any other way. So, er I told, er my daughter, er, that were in Leeds actually, what’s that er the adult education centre? There were a Pagan conference and she, we both went er and er, that were just y’know relatively easy, er and er y’know turned out okay, and erm so erm, so I had to try and work it round, sometimes it’s a bit difficult for it to just fall into the conversation really, sort of but, y’know. Unless, er y’know sometimes if there’s been something in the media then it might, so er.

He came round, now and again we go out for a sort of father and son sort of er, outing and er but this were a bit different we were in, in here and er, matter of fact the clock stopped and er, Molly were out and I were y’know sort of really trying to make sure that I told him and then Molly could come back in. So I only just got it in, y’know and just finally had to say, y’know I’ve something important to tell you. And then er later in the er, the last year, erm we decided really to do erm power of attorneys because er, if you haven’t got one, and you die, if you’re seriously ill, especially if you’re seriously ill, then not having one, er a medical one and financial is difficult on er, on your next of kin. So, it were important that they again, y’know sort of like I didn’t want them to er, y’know sort of like if I died or if we were in an accident suddenly and whatever then, and then they start y’know clearing things out and finding all, y’know sort of like, it’s not a good way of finding out that your dad’s a tranny.

So er y’know, er sort of went through, y’know like the whole power of attorney thing. And er, y’know sort of like had a good chat all about it really. And again y’know, sort of like something that’s never mentioned, on the website things is, erm, care. Y’know my experience of my mother being in care, er it would be terrible, er, y’know so I don’t really know how to, work that out y’know. Say as we couldn’t live here, if we were both together and we could move into a care home then y’know I’d want to… you see it’s getting more, it it, seems to be more I want to be dressed a lot more as I’ve got older it seems to have increased. Erm, I don’t necessarily know why, but er, sort of like if I were in a care home I’d want to be dressed, erm so whether that would be a problem or not I don’t know, er but I’d certainly be a problem if your family didn’t know wouldn’t it, I suppose. Er, but er that’s er, I’m hopefully not too bad at the moment, so it might not happen for a long time, but er these things can happen quite quickly. Y’know in my experience with other people and care homes were not good.

LW: It’s really interesting that you mention that, I’ve definitely never thought of that, and I wonder if there are probably quite a few people that would feel the same, especially if they are not out, as you say.

RM: There seems to be a lot yeah. Y’know certainly people on the, on the Beaumont Society. And they have weekends, I’ll be going to one next March. That’s another thing that I’ve done, with the Beaumont Society, we had a weekend in Richmond and we’ve been twice to Harrogate er weekend. They have one in March and one in August. I’ve never been to the August one, which would be better I think, because you’ve got the overcoat [laughs] but er, hopefully. Er this last one in March were just about snowed off and lots of people couldn’t get there, er so that’s again another good relaxing thing because everybody’s there, and they’re all quite old.

LW: So what is that you do?

RM: What do we do? Er, well one of the, well you’re dressed all day y’know basically, and there’s a lot of other people, and a lot of them are older than you, some don’t look as feminine as you, some look extremely feminine. Er so it’s just a, er, a good get together in a way, they have er again, something that I don’t particularly enjoy, y’know loud er disco and things y’know Saturday night, all sat round a massive table with loads of food that I don’t necessarily want, so again, it’s y’know it would be nice if there were, y’know could do something a little bit er, yeah, more like entertainment wise that I liked y’know.

LW: So are you finding that the Beaumont Society is the big society that everyone knows about, but there are fewer smaller societies that perhaps cater to individuals?

RW: Beaumont Society’s pretty good, and there are other ones, there are groups of people from there. I haven’t managed to find anybody, everybody’s really cagey about where they live and where they are or er, people knowing who they are. Some are really upfront and sort of, you get er on the side, they’ve been to… there’s one at the moment goes round stately homes and gets photographs taken and things and y’know she’s, she’s pretty good. Er, some are really pretty much into trans and er surgical things so there’s quite a lot there. It seemed in sometimes that they were going a lot more into the fully transgender, and er less on the transvestite sort of thing.

Erm, so I don’t know I think it would be very difficult to get the er, they have a system of regional organisers er, there isn’t one for the north east er, and if there was the north east is quite vast. They have one for Manchester and I’m probably quite near to that, I’ve y’know exchanged emails, and again you could go to er that, and I’m sure I’d find something and be welcome at that, and there’s some places where you can go and you can change when you get there. Er, but, and years ago when I first started, or knew about the Beaumont Society, they did meet in the er Midland Hotel, in Bradford. Er, but I think in a way if you were in Bradford then you’d probably go to the Leeds one y’know. But that stopped, so these isn’t much. It’s really er, finding out that there’s a lot of folk, er, around the country erm. There’s one in er, in America actually that’s on Beaumont Society that er, lives in Maine which we, went on holiday to there. So there’s connections, but it don’t really turn into a erm, one where you can do things at home or in smaller, smaller groups. Some people have but er, I haven’t.

LW: And does it still give you a sense of community?

RM: Er yeah, yes it does, yeah yeah. And people are having, y’know the similar problems about, y’know and chatting about things like y’know, er taking hormones or hair removal type techniques and er and things which are all, sort of like y’know things we think about and y’know there’s a lot that are, er older than me, and there’s er yeah, around the same age really. Seems quite an old… I don’t think a, a teenage transvestite would probably find it, er too happy in the Beaumont Society. They might, y’know,

LW: That’s quite interesting that there’s quite a generational split there, and I wonder whether…

RM: Yeah everybody seems to be, last time I were out in er, Harrogate there were a couple who were er, who were pretty young, probably twenties, thirties. But not, yeah y’know that were just one then yeah.

LW: I suppose you’d think that teenagers growing up now have perhaps a bit more acceptance?

RM: Yeah maybe they don’t feel the need as much or whatever.

LW: When you were younger do you remember trans ever being something that people talked about?


RM: Er, no nobody talked about it at all really I don’t suppose. The… I suppose the first time I come across the term were, er probably in the men only. I don’t know whether they still do that. Do they still do them magazines I don’t know?
But they were, in a way at that time, er sixties, they were y’know sort of like quite, like Play Boy, y’know sort of like, they’ve thankfully died down a lot I don’t think there’s as many [laughs]. You’d have to look to the top shelf but er yeah. So with that’d be, nobody really talked about it and if you were, er effeminate at all, I don’t think I portrayed, I don’t think I were that effeminate, apart from me breasts. Erm yeah so, so, people would be [stumbles] my circle of friends wouldn’t normally be antagonistic against anybody who were gay or owt like that. Er, but I don’t think we called em gay then... Yeah, so it weren’t talked about much at all. But y’know it were known, sort of known, but not er. Mainly I suppose it’d be er, er, certainly not going into public toilets, er because there were a lot sometimes who, yeah, not very nice things happening in there. They’ve ended up closing em all down anyway so that’s gone hasn’t it? [laughs] Er yeah, so there were none, very little. [Pause]

LW: I wanted to ask you mainly about, do you feel particularly different when you are dressed?

RM: Er, it er, yeah. Er it’s er, very calming, it’s very erm, y’know sort of like, relaxing. Erm, and it, yeah it just makes you feel, er no matter what time, y’know I’m retired now but sort of er when I were living by myself and I would sort of get home, get changed. Y’know it just, yeah, very much, very much like that really. Er and, if, if it’s possible er like some weekends or whatever, erm to get up and get dressed and be y’know dressed all day or for a few days is er, that’s really quite fulfilling, quite good. Y’know it’s difficult y’know, its er, you try and work it all out, but it’s really quite difficult to stop. I’ve thrown me female clothes away, er a few time, er but yeah it, er no, no it’s something that’s really quite, quite difficult to understand, y’know, even for the person whose er, who is it, or dresses.

LW: So you say you threw your clothes away, what was it that made you do that?

RM: Er, just the, well the, there’s always an underlying guilt er, which is very difficult to er, to get rid of. Sort of like, if you’re in, so now there’s a circle of friends I’ve got and that and er… y’know so like if we went to their house for an evening or if they came here, and that’s good. And it’s really relaxing and, even if I’m not, if I’m somewhere, if I’m with a person who knows that I dress, then that also feels better. Erm, er y’know, sort of like if I were out at the pub and not dressed and I were talking to people, that er, especially then if they, if they do call me Robbie it’s really nice. Erm but, again sort of like a lot of the time there’s this guilt, erm and y’know you look in the mirror and you think, ‘who are you kidding, er don’t be silly’, erm. Sort of like you might, y’know for a late middle-aged man y’know you’re not that bad looking, but there’s no way. Y’know, because there’s quite a thing on looking, y’know, again y’know sort of like, looking like a woman er, which is really hard to do.

So, y’know if I were just at home I wouldn’t necessarily be made up er and things yeah. Y’know but it still feels nice being in a dress. And then the other funny thing about that is in a way then you go out, and er, y’know sort of like I’m in, trousers that are female bought, as women’s trousers, a women’s top, rarely a er, a bra, but…nobody bats an eyelid, y’know. So in a way that goes on, so you think the only way next is to er, to be in a dress, y’know but then again most women don’t wear dresses. [laughs] It’s really quite er, yeah, it just sends you when you start trying to analyse it all, you start really going in circles, but you get sometimes when you think right I’m not gonna er do that anymore. I don’t need to do it. Because obviously you don’t need, y’know I’m not gonna die, or I’m not gonna, after a bit, yeah you see a nice dress and you think, that’d be really nice. So I wear women’s underclothes all the time er. And again that’s funny because when you first start doing that, you go out and you think people know, but they don’t, yeah but y’know it’s a real, er a real mind, mind thing. But er, they call that under dressing but er yeah, so there’s a lot do that. And you can wear a er, a crop top which don’t show at all, so that’s nice and y’know nice to wear, so that’s why sometimes I think y’know, I want me breasts back. But then you can buy these bras that er, these Marks and Spencer’s, er plus one or something it’s called, which er. Because then you can buy all these other prosthetic type er, er things which I, I never have done, er. And me hair’s pretty good er, so er, y’know I’m sort of alright on that. Although wigs, I suppose you could have a lot more female looking wigs.

LW: Is that something you’ve ever tried, wigs?

RM: Er no, no, I don’t think I’ve ever tried a wig on really I don’t suppose. Yes as I say I’m quite lucky there.

LW: So how do you find shopping for women’s clothes? Is that something you do quite regularly?

RM: I er, first off, er again I remember the, the first pair of knickers I brought, but er which were er, yeah. That er, that took some, took some, doing, it were really sort of quite, er hard and I suppose you blush to high heaven and er that, erm, er and then yeah it just sort of like gets easier in a way, because y’know you think well the shop wants to sell things and, the sales assistants, mainly it’s places like Marks and Spencer’s, or what have you. Er certainly for er for underwear. And then yeah, so I’m quite quickly getting okay with that, still blush, er but er. And the sales assistants are normally quite y’know fine. Because sometimes I think, they must think it’s obvious that I’m er y’know I’m buying it for me, they very rarely er, well they don’t, nobody’s ever said anything er wrong to us about that.

When I were buying dresses to go to the first Lavender Ball, I went to a shop up on er Gordon terrace, up here, and er, my wife Molly went with me and that were very good, that were really, erm, y’know because you say that y’know, if you say it straight away, y’know I want, this is for me and they know, er and then, er yeah she were really really nice, and y’know sort of like tried loads of stuff on, which in itself were really good. Er, and er, and that yeah. So it’s, still not very easy, er and charity shops, I’m not sure of. I’ve brought some shops from charity shops, but not a lot.

LW: Is it the size of the charity shop that perhaps puts you off, the smaller space?

RM: Er, they don’t have that many good clothes in in some ways, erm y’know for me, but er. But yeah it’s be, er trying it on yeah. Whereas if you’re in Marks and Spencer’s, I’m pretty sure if I went like this to Marks and Spencer’s or most other places, and picked out a dress or something, then I’d be alright going in the female, erm… trying on erm changing rooms. Er I bought some er, trousers I think in er, in a shop and I won’t, I were, er dressed as a male, so then I had to, I had to go into the male changing room, which is y’know, obvious I suppose.

LW: Is that something you find quite difficult?

RM: If I were buying a dress then yeah, yeah. Because then you, you’d take it out, if you’re going home with it and then trying it on and then taking it back, then there’s not much, yeah. A lot of me stuff I get from a firm called Patra, so this is a Patra [gestures to her dress] er, dress, and that’s mail order. And so generally I’ve worked out what sizes fit, so er, so that’s y’know quite good, and there not er, yes they’re quite good, nicely made, I think.

LW: And is it something you spend a lot of time thinking about? How they fit and what the clothes look like?

RM: Er yeah. Erm yeah it’s quite hard, because sort of like I think a lot more about clothing and things than me, than me wife does. Erm, and I probably, more than most women do I suppose, I don’t know. Yeah.

[suggested taking a break]

RM: Yeah so that were just about, in many ways you are y’know as a transvestite, you are in a way, seems like a selfish thing, and you think a lot more, er and you are wanting people to, er y’know the idea is in many ways to pass as a woman, so when you don’t then you are sort of like, in a way, failing. But when people sort of like accept you, sort of like as you are as I am now then that’s good and it makes you feel very good, y’know validates you, in many ways. Er and y’know in a way then to go on and be more, er be more, be more open, and then again thinking of this interview. Again it’s a real puzzle as to why it got round to me and in a way, why oh I’ll, y’know, have I, have I got a story, er, ah, and would that help. But there are, I know there are quite a few people like me, even if I don’t personally know them. Er and so, I thought of this, as a, as a way of me having the interview with you, and in a way then if I wanted to be part of this, of this whole project and y’know sort of be on the thing, then that is y’know coming out a lot. Although it might not be and er, people who er, who see it erm y’know it’s no good being the er, probably not 100,000 hits on Youtube is it, I don’t know but er yeah. And I were thinking, I said about me er, me sister-in-law and telling her, y’know she lives in Seattle and er, she sent me an email, which was about this lad called Niney [sic] or something, I don’t know if you’ve come across, and er there’s a picture of er him, er he’s said sort of things as er, ‘Yes I’m a boy’ and he says, flawless, his tag line is er ‘Flawless Kevin’, er a really beautiful look female face but er, a boy and seemingly he’s been doing blogs and putting things on Youtube since he were er from being about 14 I think. Er, and he’s just come out of university now I think, so she sent me that so y’know and how’s it going over there. So that’s really, really good.

LW: It seems like from what you’ve been saying, more or less everybody you’ve spoken to has been very accepting?

RM: Er, yes, apart from, two, er they’re all women, so I don’t know if that’s got owt to do with it? [chuckles]

LW: Do you think it’s easier to come out to women than to men?

RM: It’s certainly easier coming out to em. And er, I suppose significantly, I’ve got people I know, I’ve known since I was six, and er and I’d never probably really think of telling them. Y’know it’s only people that I’ve known or got to know in the last, sort of fifteen years or so.

LW: And do you know what’s holding you back from telling them or is it something you can’t quite put your finger on?

RM: Er, I suppose the er, ridicule I suppose. Certainly from old, old male friends, yeah, yeah they’d just er, they’d just laugh I suppose, yeah. And I don’t see much of them. So er, yeah so I don’t know, it’s be, it’d be interesting. Yeah, because if I did tell them I probably wouldn’t see them again for a long time so yeah.

LW: Makes it perhaps easier then?

RM: [laughs] in that way it might yeah.

LW: So I was going to ask you some more about the Beaumont Society and how you first got involved with that?

RM: Erm, [pause], I’m not really sure, but I did get the, the er phone number, and I didn’t join. It did, one of the things that it did, and were sort of very, well not vocal about but to sort of like, their er advertising sort of bit where erm that they have this, wives thing as well, er society, I don’t know whether they had to join, but they were very good on giving advice and they were very good on helping. And er, so the first er, sort of contact I had with them were, well they had a regional organiser then in Yorkshire, I think, I think she lived in, er Wakefield. And er I rang her up and had a chat and er, she told me about the meeting at the Midland Hotel. Er which I did see people, er when I’d been just in the Midland Hotel, but I never went to any.

Er and then it were, er later on, I er started getting the magazine, er and then going away testing out, and went to this, er this weekend in a hotel in Rotherham. So erm, very sort of like slow, slow thing and then and then er, more of, more involvement. I used to get the er, magazines, there’s about three or four a year, so that were just er, and it were good, that were good because it showed you pictures of people who er, like you, didn’t look all that bright er y’know so yeah that were erm, that were useful, in a lot of ways. Er and then they had, erm, they had er, more then going on to website in the last few years and it got a bit more expensive to do, to get the er, to get the printed thing. So now I just get it online, er and then anyway they’ve set out these forums and people just sort of post and send photographs and talk about different issues and things. So now I look at it more, on online. I don’t, I don’t send a lot in y’know just er, read it really. Yeah, yeah so yeah. I find it useful. Er and also the other one, the cross-dressers one and again there’s some there from England, New Zealand, Australia, most, most are in the States. And again they have, sort of like threads, it’s set out a little bit differently. Again, y’know, its erm, very supportive. Er, I haven’t asked for any support, but a lot of them do and a lot that are sort of like taking hormones and doing things. Er and a lot are getting, y’know breaking up relationships or finding new relationships, and there’s a great, sort of like y’know, support, er people sending loads of support, which is, yeah, it’s good.

LW: The first weekend you went to with the Beaumont Society, was in Rotherham?

RM: Yeah

LW: Do you remember much about it? Where you quite nervous the first time?

RM: Oh yeah, extremely, er so again y’know I sort of like drove, it’s erm just on outskirts, one of them hotels that’s in middle of nowhere, yeah you would not go to all unless you were going to summat like this or you were on a business, er business thing. Er and er, so not necessarily looking at all female when we went in, erm but then sort of like y’know, you’d give your name and er and then going up and then in a way then getting changed. And then being completely okay like that, and the, er just getting up in the morning and just getting dressed and being dressed at breakfast time were er yeah, really, really good. And y’know none of the staff, y’know, they were all okay, er and things. And then I er, as I say it were out, y’know on sort of quite main road. Er we got dressed and walked along the main road and that were really sort of quite nerve, very nervy. Er but y’know, very, very glad to do.

And on the er, so that’s Friday night and Saturday night, Saturday afternoon er went to a erm, a nearby park and sort of museumy thing, and er, so that were quite nerve wracking. Erm, but again as we walk round and nobody says owt and, that then that’s quite, yeah you just settle down and, and then it’s okay, yeah. So that were er, yeah, so that were experience there.

On that, sort of on going out on that sort of thing, the, er wanted to do for me erm 60th , must have been, must be getting a long time ago, no no it might have been me 65th. No it weren’t, it were me 60th birthday, and er, I’ve a friend in York, er and me wife Molly, and er another friend and, I y’know asked if I could organise er, going to York er because, y’know one of them lived in York so I could change there and then y’know, have a walk round, but that caused a lot of trouble, er with this other friend who were one of these people who intellectually, are very okay, yeah you can sort of y’know, are like really, quite okay on erm, on on that level y’know everybody can do what they want and all that but wasn’t, and all and didn’t really like me doing, y’know being dressed at all, and sort of like that finished up as a fall out. Anyway, we went to York and the other friend didn’t really want to go around with me, so it finished up just me and er Molly, [laughs] er walking round. And er, so I weren’t as good at it then. I had sandals, women’s sandals on but they didn’t fit all that well and er, yeah I, in some ways it’d be nice to try it again, but it were, it were pretty bad. I found it really difficult to look at folk, because normally your walking round and y’know looking at people a bit, y’know and er, yeah I didn’t I were looking at the floor, sort of like looking down and things but er, yeah, so that were quite harrowing. Er but again, nobody, one lad y’know sort of like from quite a distance er noticed me and y’know making a bit of his noise and his mum [imitates mum telling off a child].

But er, yeah so that were quite er, but this last time, last time we went to Harrogate, er went out and it were very cold and wet and snowy and things, er it weren’t actually raining but we went round and there were snow of the er sort of like walk through the, er park in er in Harrogate, and went to er, went to a micro pub and things. Again I suppose, y’know I had er sort of er had a dress on and leggings but not, yeah you wouldn’t necessarily think y’know that I were in, but we had a little bit of makeup on. But er, y’know and that were okay that were good, that felt okay. Erm, but again it’s the setting I suppose and you know that there’s, y’know, this hotel down the road and there’s a load of you like that. Yeah so they might have seen other people walking round. Yeah, but y’know that day.

LW: It seems having that group is really important for, not just coming to terms with how you feel about yourself, but for the ability to go out and do things too?

RM: Oh yeah, yeah. I’ve met erm, somebody who er, who, who is trans through er, through CAMRA [Campaign for Real Ale] and so I were talking to her, er not this year the other, February they have a CAMRA beer festival in Victoria Hall, and so I saw her and so I talked to her, and er, in a way so she’s, y’know so she, she don’t need to go to these sort of weekends because she’s fully done, y’know so she wouldn’t do that and er yeah so that’s er, so there’s er, but she had been in contact with it before that. Y’know so it’s, so for people like who erm, who are very, y’know sort of reticent about going out in public, er there’s a lot of erm, there’s a lot on the website who erm, their wives erm might know, but in a way forbid it y’know so er. They call that D A D T [don’t ask don’t tell?] but I’m not right sure on what they stand for, it gets a mine field with initials, but er yeah, so so that, in a way my first marriage were, a little bit like that, although, although she did know that I er, yeah. Yeah, er and then, coming up now there’s erm, this other term which is man in a dress, M I A D, er and there’s quite a few people seemingly go out in er that style y’know not, not trying to look like a woman but y’know going out wearing what they want to wear. Yeah so erm, yeah so there, so that, I think y’know is more recent that people seem to be, y’know that must be after the er Eurovision Song Contest, with the er, with the bearded winner. Mmm.

LW: So thinking about that and clothes, then, how do you feel about the discussion going on around gendered clothes and children at the moment?

RM: I think, there were a store that were having it, it erm, er y’know not as set out, y’know I think if it were a lot more integrated it would be a lot better for shoppers. I think er, clothes shopping is extremely difficult, I had these, y’know just rows and rows of trousers, you can’t, you can’t really tell what they look like or owt, y’know and then you see a, y’know a mannequin that’s got all these clothes on and you think, ‘Oh that’s nice’, and then you go and try and find them and they’re just not there, but I think for er, in, in ‘60s I suppose there were a lot of frilly shirts and stuff that er, boys had so I think it’s quite a er, fashionable thing, and I think that er, certainly, y’know in the making of clothes, I think men’s clothes tend to be, or certainly ones that are y’know not, not cheap, are better made, er but the female clothes that er, erm y’know nicer material and things y’know. So like a shirt might be better made than a blouse, but the material in the blouse probably feels better. Y’know, buy yes it’d be er, be nice.

I think er, I’ve no idea what I’d y’know as a kid, a lot of times, er I tried to be I suppose more er, male, than I needed to, erm, y’know in a way suppressing the female feelings. Y’know I think there’s a lot, again there’s a lot of stories like that going into the armed forces and y’know jobs like that. There’s a lot y’know that er, yeah, in, in a way like that, so in you’re overcompensating. It would have been er, yeah looking now I don’t know whether I’d have been, yeah sort of er, really, really er y’know yeah, it’d have been great to be er, able to be dressed when I were a teenager, that’s have been really fantastic. And then you think, y’know sort of like what changes would that be, and again back, back then there were a lot, sort of like it were very much underground and it were very much in a way sort of a bit sordid, a bit y’know so it were quite easy to be, y’know especially at a very young age, y’know drawn in y’know to sort of like be a bit more, y’know probably at risk, I think, I don’t know. But now, hopefully nowadays it’s a lot, a little bit more open, sort of like if you’re, y’know you wouldn’t have to be, y’know you wouldn’t have to y’know knock on the door three times and ask for er whatever, y’know to in and it be a bit er…[end of part one] y’know more er [unclear] the people I’ve met y’know certainly the cross-dressers and er the people at Beaumont at them weekends, and the people I know that, y’know that are gay erm, certainly erm, yeah certainly on… I’m trying to think of the right words, but y’know sort of like when I were a teenager y’know to be gay, you’d have been underground, you wouldn’t y’know… and all that gives it that undercover sort of more risky sort of er, things. Yeah.

LW: Is there anything that you particularly wanted to share that you feel we’ve not covered?

RM: Er, I don’t know I’ve been talking all that much haven’t I really? So yeah, so I hope it’s been useful. I think I’ve in a way gone through, er what it’s like. I think and still now, sort of thinking ah y’know sometimes, y’know give it up sometimes not. Sometimes, y’know when I go out – I go to folk club er most Thursdays, and a lot of times I MC there, and it er, so I’ve been getting increasingly er, I don’t let people know, nobody’s said anything at all, and I get the impression that they won’t say anything whatsoever, unless I went in makeup and a dress, and er y’know whether I’d ever do that. I’d love to do that, but whether I would or not I don’t know.

There’s another group, er that meets regularly again, er mainly friends of Molly’s and they all went er, on a big sort of holiday together, and then they kept in this group, they went to er, went to Pakistan. And again sort of like last, don’t meet that regularly but we go to different houses, er, and I’ve been wearing y’know last few times, a lot more feminine clothes and nobody’s said a word, but y’know so, and in a way just waiting for it to er, drop into conversation. Y’know sort of like when that er, we didn’t meet at that time, but if it’d have been you know if the erm, government’s consultation had been on then, then that might have been something. Because it a way it don’t matter, er they don’t need to know erm but it would be nice if they did. I suppose, er and then, y’know yeah. So it’s er, it’s pushing it in a way like er, like that, er, but then still thinking, oh well I’ll throw all this stuff away, I’ll try not to, I won’t do it anymore. So that’s just a constant, a constant thing.

I don’t know whether you’d like it, er or whether I should share it, but I did write a poem, er, with me er, er about me breast things, so would you er I don’t know whether that would be a good thing?

LW: Yeah I think that would be fantastic!

RM: I’ll have to go and find it. [Robbie goes off to find the poem]

RM: So erm, yeah in, so as I say me wife were er, saying y’know why didn’t you do something about them, about me breasts and er, er so er, in a way I didn’t want to at all, and the I thought well if something can be there er, so so I wrote this, and er, because I’d written this, she thought I wasn’t going to do it at all but, but I, but I did. And it were really quite, y’know looking back on it now… I would hope that now there would be a lot more, questions from the doctors. They didn’t bother asking me owt really, y’know they just, sort of like examined me and said ‘Yes, yes you are male’, and er, er yes, y’know and then, they, they did it y’know so er, so that were it really. Anyway so er, so I wrote this in ‘92. [Clears throat] and called it ‘Big Tits’… and the first line refers to er, a neighbour said this when I were, er thirteen actually, I remember er it were 19, 1963, very good weather, walking up er, I were walking up road.
‘You look like a wrestler’ maybe If I exercised I could,
Charles Atlas, Springs, Bull Worker,
In front of the mirror, flexed muscles, looks good
Maybe my looks could be my salvation
Join the circus, no need to makeup, just a little cover up
‘Roll up! Roll up! See the bearded lady!’
But wait a minute I’m no freak, people don’t notice, they don’t care.
Everyone else sunbathes, plays on the beach, so I’ll do the same.
I won’t let my mind put it beyond my reach
Low fat diets, regular exercise, pumping iron, and baggy t-shirts
‘You look well’, ‘You’ve lost weight’, the positive attitude is really great
Who’s that you’re kidding? You’re really a joke
Can’t you see them staring? Don’t you hear the giggles as you approach?
Of course I do. But aren’t they quieter now?
Fooling yourself is not easy, it takes years to perfect and is instantly gone
Is that a snigger I detect? Who is it laughing?
It can only be me…
[Robbie pauses, holding back tears, and says sorry]
It takes more than one mind to set yourself free,
On medical science I’ll now have to rely, to see if the truth can belie
Two cuts or some tablets could do the trick. With luck they could even extend my prick
But then what skills do I offer the circus

RM: [voice wobbles] Sorry. I haven’t read that for a long time.

END